Staminus and a fake company continued

Today’s response from Staminus:

""I can only ask you to investigate because there are serious doubts this is a legitimate website."

Investigator : a person, persons or entity who is qualified to and tasked with investigation. e.g. Policeman or law enforcement.

Law Enforcement: a body that can investigate and gather evidence to be used in a court of law for prosecutions.

ISP : a company that provides internet services and is generally is unqualified and unlicensed to conduct legal investigations or provide chain of custody for evidence necessary for a trial.

**

Therein lies the source of your problem. Now that I understand, I can probably be of some assistance to you.

Not dissimilar to grabbing a random used car salesman and putting them in charge of designing and building nuclear bombs, you have been focusing on getting the wrong group/individual(s) to do your investigation for you.

I encourage you to contact your local law enforcement office. They are qualified, licensed and certified to conduct legal investigations, collect legal evidence, track chain of custody for said evidence, and then provide said evidence to a prosecutor. If they determine that they require additional information, they will contact us directly via established channels.

By following this procedure, criminals can be investigated, charged, tried and convicted.

By following your procedure, at best, criminals would have their services briefly interrupted while they relocate to another host - possibly even within the same data center / ISP.

I'm glad we were finally able to clarify the challenge you were experiencing and get it resolved for you.

If you need the numbers to any law enforcement, FBI, Homeland security or secret service, please do not hesitate to ask. We will be happy to provide you with appropriate contact information.

Abuse Department
Staminus Communications "

"Dear Staminus,

While I can understand your position, I do disagree with you.

I note that you still have not provided a link to, or copy of your TOS, but I guess that fraud is against your TOS. It generally is for most hosting companies.

I can only ask you to investigate, look into or at least re-examine your side of things, specifically the arrangement that your company has with your customer.

I am asking because you are in a much better position to do so than I am. I can only point to the website and raise with you the doubts over the validity of the statements and claims made on the website that are claimed to be facts. Where I can refute those I have provided sources for my information. You may not choose to recognise the sources I linked to, that is your right, just as it is my right to inform you of abuse that I believe is occurring that is utilising your resources.

In this case as the site claims to be a company in 6 different countries, is hosted in a seventh and the registrant claims to be in an eighth, just which countries Law Enforcement would you suggest I contact? All of them? When I have serious doubts that it would fall under any of their jurisdictions? As I said previously, I am not a victim. Or do you think Law Enforcement would be more willing to hear from yourselves, as after all, you have a financial relationship with your customer and can provide much more information and, in general, be of more assistance to them than I can as an ordinary citizen?

I am all for having getting the police and courts involved in investigating these matters, but the sad fact is that unless they have victims, ie. evidence of a crime having been committed, there is little for them to do. Who exactly is in the better position here to provide this? Myself an ordinary citizen, or the hosting company?

Or, just perhaps, it may be better for everyone for the hosting company to step in before people are defrauded and turned into victims.

Most hosting companies have abuse teams that can recognise fraudulent sites, and suspend them. As you say, briefly interrupting their criminal activity, but it does prevent people falling victim to these fraudsters while they relocate their site.
It also sends a message to the fraudsters to stay away from that hosting company, in effect the more sites hosts suspend the fewer they will have to in future. After all, no hosting company wants to have a reputation for hosting fraudulent sites, do they?

At this point it seems only fair to inform you that I happen to maintain a blog - http://419fraudtoleranthosts.blogspot.com/ and I have posted our exchanges so far.

Kind regards

Rob"

 Staminus' reply:

"but I guess that fraud is against your TOS"

You have not proven fraud. You have implied some form of deception and suggested that I obtain sufficient evidence on my own.

Will you be funding the investigation?

"I can only ask you to investigate"

You can, indeed, ask. But that is not the "only" thing you can do. You could also perform the investigation yourself and obtain proof beyond circumstantial evidence of a violation of our TOS or criminal activity.

"I am asking because you are in a much better position to do so than I am"

By what method do you arrive at that conclusion? I have the same internet access as you do. And, if you are suggesting that I access the server, drives or data, then you also have the same access to hack the server that you are suggesting I do.

"but the sad fact is that unless they have victims, ie. evidence of a crime having been committed"

That damned US Constitution gets in the way every time, doesn't it. Let's throw out the 'search and seizure' laws. Let's throw out 'innocent until proven guilty'. Let's throw out 'wire tapping' laws. While we're at it, let's just take anyone you suggest behind the barn and shoot them - unless you'd prefer hanging.

In fact, we require the same proof/evidence that law enforcement requires.

You aren't really supporting the notion that services be terminated based on suspicion, are you?

You'd be okay with having someone report a suspicion to your ISP and having them terminate your services based on that suspicion? Really? Or will you, perhaps, suggest that your ISP should spend money investigating you? Will they be looking for evidence to convict or evidence to clear you? Who will pay for that investigation? Will you be okay with them reviewing all of your emails and phone calls? Just how much of an ISP police state are you advocating?

"Who exactly is in the better position here to provide this? Myself an ordinary citizen, or the hosting company?"

None of the above. Law Enforcement is in the best position to investigate and collect information that leads to a conviction.

"Most hosting companies have abuse teams that can recognise fraudulent sites"

We are not a hosting company. We do not provide web hosting services.

We are an ISP

"At this point it seems only fair to inform you that I happen to maintain a blog"

Email communications are private and copyrighted. Publishing them is a criminal offense and can be prosecuted. You have not requested and I have not granted permission to republish my copyrighted and private communications.

Clearly you have now established that you are a criminal.

No further communication is necessary.

Have a great day.

 As Staminus has asked me to stop emailing them on this issue, I will. However, this would have been my response to them.

"Dear Staminus,

In answer to your email,

"You have not proven fraud. You have implied some form of deception and suggested that I obtain sufficient evidence on my own.
Will you be funding the investigation?"

The definition of fraud:
"Fraud is a type of criminal activity, defined as:
'abuse of position, or false representation, or prejudicing someone's rights for personal gain'.
Put simply, fraud is an act of deception intended for personal gain or to cause a loss to another party.

The general criminal offence of fraud can include:

deception whereby someone knowingly makes false representation
or they fail to disclose information
or they abuse a position."

Site claims to be an international company head quartered in the UK. The contact address listed for these headquarters is another countries Embassy. No company has any office in an Embassy. They can afford their own offices.

The company is not registered with Companies House in the UK, despite claiming to be a 150 year old company.

The telephone number for the headquarters is a mobile number, would a long established company really not have a geographic number in their own offices for potential customers to call?

The email address listed for the headquarters is for a suspended domain. The email address used to register this suspended domain does not exist. A whois violation.

"By what method do you arrive at that conclusion? I have the same internet access as you do. And, if you are suggesting that I access the server, drives or data, then you also have the same access to hack the server that you are suggesting I do."

You are at the abuse desk of an ISP. You are providing services for this website, and as such, I would imagine, have better contacts with Law Enforcement and the hosting company for this website than I as an ordinary citizen would have access to. You could simply pass my email to them for them to look at and make a decision on. They may decide that it warrants investigation, although you have made it abundantly clear that you do not.

"That damned US Constitution gets in the way every time, doesn't it. Let's throw out the 'search and seizure' laws. Let's throw out 'innocent until proven guilty'. Let's throw out 'wire tapping' laws. While we're at it, let's just take anyone you suggest behind the barn and shoot them - unless you'd prefer hanging.
In fact, we require the same proof/evidence that law enforcement requires.
You aren't really supporting the notion that services be terminated based on suspicion, are you?
You'd be okay with having someone report a suspicion to your ISP and having them terminate your services based on that suspicion? Really? Or will you, perhaps, suggest that your ISP should spend money investigating you? Will they be looking for evidence to convict or evidence to clear you? Who will pay for that investigation? Will you be okay with them reviewing all of your emails and phone calls? Just how much of an ISP police state are you advocating?"

Not at all. I think you misunderstand me. I am saying please look at the website in question, look at the links I have provided and come to your own conclusion as to whether this is a website that you want your company associated with. If it is, fine. Feel free to ignore me. I am asking if what I have said has raised no doubts in your mind as whether you would be happy to engage this companies services or not.

""Who exactly is in the better position here to provide this? Myself an ordinary citizen, or the hosting company?"None of the above. Law Enforcement is in the best position to investigate and collect information that leads to a conviction."

Again, you misunderstand me. I agree LE is in the best position to investigate, however I also believe that you would be able to provide them with better leads than I could.

""Most hosting companies have abuse teams that can recognise fraudulent sites"

We are not a hosting company. We do not provide web hosting services.

We are an ISP"

Again, you could simply pass my email to the hosting company and let them make their own decision.

""At this point it seems only fair to inform you that I happen to maintain a blog"

Email communications are private and copyrighted. Publishing them is a criminal offense and can be prosecuted. You have not requested and I have not granted permission to republish my copyrighted and private communications.

Clearly you have now established that you are a criminal."

Actually, I believe that I would be covered by fair use. You are sending emails in your capacity as a representative of Staminus, who I am conversing with over their providing services to a domain I believe to be fraudulent, I am attempting to demonstrate why and your responses to my emails, it is for those reading to make up their own minds. If you didn't want these emails made public, perhaps you should reconsider what you are saying before you send them."

Update 09/05/15: panwestafricasec.net is currently offline, hopefully for good.